Cool-headed interview with John Nadler of Kitco

Nadler is great to read because he’s in the precious metals industry (Kitco is a bullion dealer), but he isn’t a perma-bull. He takes a non-hysterical approach to the market, and provides insights into internal supply and demand forces.

This is a long interview, published here. Here’s an excerpt:

“…If deflationary pressures really take hold, we may have a case of “reverse hedge” developing, whereby gold might still fall to the mid-$600s or even as low as the low $500s, but still fall less in percentage terms than other assets might. In that case, investors would still be better off holding some gold and lots of cash rather than equities or real estate and such. Hopefully we don’t head into that deflationary spiral because that could hurt a lot of higher-priced producers of gold. Certainly a lot of the mining companies would have to reconsider what projects to mothball if that happens.

If we don’t go into that vortex and confidence returns by whatever means, things could stabilize. Stability in gold would imply a trading range between $650 and $850. It’s definitely a blow to the doomsday newsletter writers, who thought the circumstances we are seeing now were the ideal scenarios they’d dreamt of as far back as we can recall. They know, however, that the world of $2,000 gold is not one they would want to live in.

The fact that in July gold had trouble surpassing $930, (not even matching the March highs when Bear Stearns failed), was definitely a big wake-up call as to what was going on. And of course what’s going on is that a lot of people had already bought gold starting at $252 and all the way up to $400 and $600. When this big crisis hit, if they spotted their 401(k) accounts off by 38% and their gold holdings ahead by 50% or 60% or much more, it wasn’t a hard decision to make. They liquidated that which was profitable in order to mitigate their losses. That’s why they’d bought their gold to begin with.

So the latecomers, those who were rushing in, having put off their gold purchases until it became a burning issue, basically got caught trying to buy into this “runaway train” scenario. The few people who tried cost-averaging higher-level purchases of $900 to $1,000-plus were the freshest of buyers during these past couple of weeks. The difference we spotted in retail transaction patterns is that this particular cycle in the gold market brought out quite a few sellers, along with new buyers. So there’s very good two-way activity going on in the physical market.

TGR: The gold bullion coins appear to have a very high premium over the gold spot price, so there still seems to be some fear out there, or is it shortages?

JN: Some issues in the physical market are really grossly misinterpreted. Observers are not doing anyone any favors. My perception is that we have a contingent of pundits who are extremely panicked that this is a very poor reaction by gold to the crisis, and it will make them look bad. It already has. Now they’re trying to manufacture this global stampede into gold by panicking investors and by scaring them with stories of supplies running out. No one will argue that there are higher levels of individual investor interest, but it’s nothing “unprecedented.” They’re trying to make it out as unprecedented, and that’s simply not the case. Perhaps it says more about how short a time such pundits have spent in these markets.

TGR: Just how real is the shortage in coins, then?

JN: Specifically, what’s going on with the coins is that most of the mints of the world do not operate on a “produce-then-wait-and-see” basis. They don’t pre-mint hundreds of thousands of coins and put them on the shelf waiting for buyers to materialize. They basically operate on a mint-to-demand policy.

Because of the prolonged bear market in the ’80s and ’90s, most of them had slimmed down to bare essentials and, in fact, a lot farm out some components of the coin manufacturing process, such as blanking. The U.S. Mint is one of them. They ran into some blank coin quality problems in silver back in March, with about half a million silver blank rejects. That put them behind the production schedules, and when demand indeed kicked in for physical small coins, they were unable to fulfill commitments on a timely basis. This does not mean they ceased production. In fact, most of these mints consider small-item production quite profitable, which implies that they have added shifts, are finding new suppliers of blanks and new refiners for material, and augmenting production to meet the demand. Inventory build-up is one of their top current priorities.

Look back in recent history at the classical gold rushes, if you will. During the first one, in that inflationary period in the late ’70s and early ’80s, some 16 million Krugerrands were sold globally. The market events of 1987 brought on the next wave of buying, and that is when the U.S. Mint sold more than 1.25 million ounces of gold. Nor should we lose sight of the fact that in the ’91 recession, just a few short years later, they only sold a quarter million ounces. And then we go to about 1999 before Y2K. Again, they suspended sales of certain products like silver rounds, which were being hoarded by people expecting the end of the world. Next would be May of 2006, with the North Korean and Iranian political tensions. Again, very good robust sales, but nothing of the magnitude of ’80 or ’87, and similar to what we’ve had since last year. But at best, I think this year the U.S. Mint will sell about 750,000 or 800,000 ounces. It’s not the level of 1987’s stampede or panic, so I don’t see why they’re trying to make it out to be something bigger than it is.

TGR: Why is there such a premium, though? Just because they’re undersupplied?

JN: Yes, once the retail shops saw the Mint selling coins on an allocation basis, with some restrictions to build up inventories, the retailers started raising premiums on coins that they couldn’t basically get to fulfill previously sold orders. They raised their bids; they also raised their offer. It’s really limited to items like the silver rounds and some of the smaller fractional coins.

But in terms of Kitco getting supplies, basically we took the attitude that if we could not get a commitment from our distributors and suppliers as to a firm premium and/or a delivery date or both, we simply removed the items from the order pages in the online store. Those order pages are limited to items we are confident we can deliver at a decent price within a decent number of days. I know that the list is looking pretty slim, but we do have product to sell, and our pool accounts have never had any shortage of underlying material to secure; namely, 1,000-ounce bars of silver and 400-ounce bars of gold. We continue to offset 100% of all pool account purchases for the peace of mind of our clients.

And we’re adding back a lot of the items that had been removed. For instance, we just got several tens of thousands in gold coins and about a quarter million in silver coins from the Royal Canadian Mint. We’re getting Austrian gold and silver coins in very soon, and I’m sure that the U.S. will restart its sales to distributors once they switch dates on the coins to 2009. This is, coincidentally, the period when mints cease producing old (current year) dating and start with the new ones, and the switchover generally creates a bit of a glitch, too. At any rate, there will be product. We have eggs, thus we will have the omelet as well.

TGR: So it would be prudent to wait a bit.

JN: Absolutely. People are not good consumers if they go out and pay $5 over spot on $10.50 silver just to secure something that they think they’re going to have to barter at the grocery store….”

About these ads

5 thoughts on “Cool-headed interview with John Nadler of Kitco

  1. If, in ten years, we look back at this period of unprecented financial turmoil where the Fed and the Treasury plowed huge amounts of government money into the private sector and we see that gold never again traded above $1000 and in fact stayed in the range of $650-$850, I will be flabbergasted. It certainly goes against my understanding of the history of fiat currencies.

    My feeling is that this is another one of those periods, of which we’ve had two or three or four since 2001, where it looks like the gold bull is over, only to be resurrected with new fury within a year or so. With the most socialist Democratic party in my memory coming into power – perhaps with a fillibuster-proof majority – and the debt already at such high levels, and the Chinese, Russians, and others disgruntled with US monetary policy, I can’t believe that the dollar is going to hold its value at approximately the current level into the forseeable future. No way.

  2. Within 10 years, there is no question that the current monetary regime will break down — 5 is even likely. I buy gold almost every week in preparation (though lately I have been buying puts on GLD on rallies to hedge). When that happens, the dollar price becomes meaningless — it will be better to measure the price of dollars and everything else in gold.

    Nadler is a bit too sanguine about the severity of it all, but I like his points about the near-term dynamics at play, and that there has been no reason to load up at 800-900 per, since we have just entered a deflationary episode and physical will likely be available shortly at lower premiums.

  3. Buying GLD puts in a rally is an interesting idea. I own it for the long term, but you can see a probably scenario of another event that drives gold to $850 and then the subsequent cooling of fears where it falls back to $750.

    I wouldn’t want to sell a portion of the position on strength since it’s basically an economic insurance policy, but putting a couple dollars of the gains back to work is an interesting play. If gold continues to go up, then you feel smart becasue you still have the position and have only lost your hedge, and if it cycles, then you’ve improved your cost basis.

    In other news, I discoverd this blog a week or so ago and love it. The DBA and XAU/GLD ratio posts were great insight, and the Kitco & Greenspan text illuminating.

    andy

  4. GLD is for trading only, not to own long term. For that you want the real thing in a form you can heft.

    I sold my Jan 09 GLD puts on Monday. Had been building that position on rallies since June. I still have some March puts.

    Thanks for the kind words on the blog. I’ve been a bit delinquent in posting this week since I am in the middle of a trans-oceanic move.

  5. This guy has been consistently wrong. While he was telling everyone who read the interview to settle on a gold price in the low $500 range or at best $850, the price is over $1500 less than 3 years later.
    He is the consummate gold bear and dollar bull. Well, just look at the dollar in less than 3 years. Nor was he predicting the sub-prime mortgage debacle or the financial collapse. He is no more than a regurgitator of the establishment financial priess.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s