Comments on: Barf O’Rama http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/ Thoughts on the markets and the decline of the west Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:43:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: PEJ http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5385 PEJ Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:30:36 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5385 "I know more than you" or "I know better than you" has never really been a convincing argument, specially when not followed by any example, explanation, detail. Anyway, I just saying... “I know more than you” or “I know better than you” has never really been a convincing argument, specially when not followed by any example, explanation, detail. Anyway, I just saying…

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By: Paul http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5383 Paul Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:08:10 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5383 Pej, Don't be patronizing. I know far more history than you might imagine. I also know about economic history and the origins of modern economics in eighteenth century Enlightenment thought--and its relation to a host of other developing sciences, including, might I add, the crisis of both rationalism and empiricism. Pej,

Don’t be patronizing. I know far more history than you might imagine. I also know about economic history and the origins of modern economics in eighteenth century Enlightenment thought–and its relation to a host of other developing sciences, including, might I add, the crisis of both rationalism and empiricism.

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By: Pej http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5360 Pej Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:27:06 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5360 Paul, you need to read some of Mises books as well as some history books. A society cannot evolve if its foundations are rotten, mainly because price, which is the only possible way to measure output and input value, is completely distorted due to inflation of credit and currency. Rome collapsed into hyperinflation. Hitler raised to power after hyperinflation. Most of the major events in our history find their source into economic reasons. Paul, you need to read some of Mises books as well as some history books.

A society cannot evolve if its foundations are rotten, mainly because price, which is the only possible way to measure output and input value, is completely distorted due to inflation of credit and currency.

Rome collapsed into hyperinflation. Hitler raised to power after hyperinflation. Most of the major events in our history find their source into economic reasons.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5347 Mike Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:22:54 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5347 Paul, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't credit the above to the gold standard, though I would say that it certainly helped more than most realize. Paul, don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t credit the above to the gold standard, though I would say that it certainly helped more than most realize.

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By: Paul http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5346 Paul Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:12:38 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5346 Mike, We're just going to go in circles. We disagree. Let's leave it at that. The one point I will make though in response to your last post is that to credit the gold standard with the rise of the West is specious historically at best. In order to establish that, the first thing you'd have to do is compare it to other societies and cultures that didn't rise. If I recall my history, a lot of the dominance of the West had to do with science--you know, the printing press, galileo, invention. Those are not a function of a currency standard. Why would you privilege economics as a determining field over other historical causes, such as most simply, geography, population, etc.? Mike,
We’re just going to go in circles. We disagree. Let’s leave it at that.

The one point I will make though in response to your last post is that to credit the gold standard with the rise of the West is specious historically at best. In order to establish that, the first thing you’d have to do is compare it to other societies and cultures that didn’t rise.

If I recall my history, a lot of the dominance of the West had to do with science–you know, the printing press, galileo, invention. Those are not a function of a currency standard. Why would you privilege economics as a determining field over other historical causes, such as most simply, geography, population, etc.?

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5339 Mike Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:44:37 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5339 It's valuable because its physical properties make it the perfect material for a store of value and medium of exchange. We need something to serve as money -- if it not gold or fiat script, it might be seashells, cigarettes, vodka, blocks of tea, or a certain kind of sticks (as in England at one point). Gold holds its value through the ages because its physical properties make it simply the best choice. Paul doesn't understand the function of a store of value. Value represents labor, or knowledge or food or energy, something that people desire and are willing to exchange assets or services for. A store of value allows savings, and savings are necessary for investment. Without investment, there is no progress. Therefore, the best store of value best fosters progress. Witness a little era called the industrial revolution, when a dollar was a dollar and a pound was a pound, and western civilization made its greatest strides. It’s valuable because its physical properties make it the perfect material for a store of value and medium of exchange. We need something to serve as money — if it not gold or fiat script, it might be seashells, cigarettes, vodka, blocks of tea, or a certain kind of sticks (as in England at one point). Gold holds its value through the ages because its physical properties make it simply the best choice.

Paul doesn’t understand the function of a store of value. Value represents labor, or knowledge or food or energy, something that people desire and are willing to exchange assets or services for. A store of value allows savings, and savings are necessary for investment. Without investment, there is no progress. Therefore, the best store of value best fosters progress. Witness a little era called the industrial revolution, when a dollar was a dollar and a pound was a pound, and western civilization made its greatest strides.

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By: Paul http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5338 Paul Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:18:12 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5338 Pej, Sorry, I think you believe that Gold is an objectively valuable thing. Yet value, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. In other words, value is a function of exchange, and the expression of that function is some kind of contractual assertation of value--i.e. a price. Gold is valued in dollars. Dollars are not valued in Gold. Even the most strident gold bug will argue that its value will go up as expressed in a paper currency. And, in the end, in order to use it, you have to exchange it back into that paper currency. Another way to think about this is that when you buy stock, you buy a claim on profits. What do you buy with gold? "Value." Sorry, but that sounds like mysticism to me. Pej,

Sorry, I think you believe that Gold is an objectively valuable thing. Yet value, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. In other words, value is a function of exchange, and the expression of that function is some kind of contractual assertation of value–i.e. a price. Gold is valued in dollars. Dollars are not valued in Gold. Even the most strident gold bug will argue that its value will go up as expressed in a paper currency. And, in the end, in order to use it, you have to exchange it back into that paper currency.

Another way to think about this is that when you buy stock, you buy a claim on profits. What do you buy with gold? “Value.” Sorry, but that sounds like mysticism to me.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5334 Mike Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:18:50 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5334 And Pej, gold's value is no constant. It is as close as we have to one, but look at how it lost about 85% of its purchasing power (CPI basis -- on a stock market basis, it lost 97%, and it probably lost 90% on a real estate basis) from 1980 to 2000. Also look at how little people were paid 2000 years ago: a Denarius a day was a standard wage in Rome. That is about 4.5 grams of silver, if I recall, worth about $2 today. Yet that was enough to feed a small family back then. And Pej, gold’s value is no constant. It is as close as we have to one, but look at how it lost about 85% of its purchasing power (CPI basis — on a stock market basis, it lost 97%, and it probably lost 90% on a real estate basis) from 1980 to 2000.

Also look at how little people were paid 2000 years ago: a Denarius a day was a standard wage in Rome. That is about 4.5 grams of silver, if I recall, worth about $2 today. Yet that was enough to feed a small family back then.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5333 Mike Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:12:40 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5333 Oh, value can increase as price decreases if the prices of everything else decrease even more. Oh, value can increase as price decreases if the prices of everything else decrease even more.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/18/barf-orama/#comment-5332 Mike Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:12:03 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2671#comment-5332 Dave, I don't think Prechter has mentioned $200 for ages. All he says now is "below 680," the low of last autumn. I don't expect 200. Even 400 I give a 10-30% chance. I'll start to buy under 800 and play it by ear. Also, in the Depression, the fact that the price was fixed at $20 was enough to increase margins because labor, equipment, transportation and fuel costs fell dramatically. Companies with mines that had been economical in the 1920s absolutely cleaned up in the '30s, even before the fix was raised. Dave, I don’t think Prechter has mentioned $200 for ages. All he says now is “below 680,” the low of last autumn. I don’t expect 200. Even 400 I give a 10-30% chance. I’ll start to buy under 800 and play it by ear.

Also, in the Depression, the fact that the price was fixed at $20 was enough to increase margins because labor, equipment, transportation and fuel costs fell dramatically. Companies with mines that had been economical in the 1920s absolutely cleaned up in the ’30s, even before the fix was raised.

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