Comments on: Summer school http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/ Thoughts on the markets and the decline of the west Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:10:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Graphite http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5394 Graphite Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:16:06 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5394 My Chicago roommates and I were using every trick in the book this last winter (which was brutal, by the way) to keep our gas bill down, and that was before the two of them lost their jobs. Natural gas is going to keep falling because more and more people can't even afford to heat their homes. I hope those "smart rich people" do load up on UNG so they can share in the misery a little. In February there were concerns that storage space around Cushing would run out because there was literally nowhere left to put the oil -- demand had fallen off a cliff. Given the stockpile figures that are coming out and all the supply that's been stored and sold forward to capture the "reflation"-driven price contango, I'd say we're gearing up for a spectacular repeat performance. My Chicago roommates and I were using every trick in the book this last winter (which was brutal, by the way) to keep our gas bill down, and that was before the two of them lost their jobs. Natural gas is going to keep falling because more and more people can’t even afford to heat their homes. I hope those “smart rich people” do load up on UNG so they can share in the misery a little.

In February there were concerns that storage space around Cushing would run out because there was literally nowhere left to put the oil — demand had fallen off a cliff. Given the stockpile figures that are coming out and all the supply that’s been stored and sold forward to capture the “reflation”-driven price contango, I’d say we’re gearing up for a spectacular repeat performance.

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By: Axclr8 http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5390 Axclr8 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:29:09 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5390 @Daedal I believe that eventually Natural Gas will head higher ... from what level, that is the unknown but there are are a lot of smart rich people looking at UNG get ready to buy ... Also, it depends on the kind of winter we may get ... @Daedal

I believe that eventually Natural Gas will head higher … from what level, that is the unknown but there are are a lot of smart rich people looking at UNG get ready to buy … Also, it depends on the kind of winter we may get …

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By: Daedal http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5384 Daedal Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:20:01 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5384 @Axclr8 Re-read this: "Back in 2007, there were a couple of notable divergences when natural gas prices turned down but oil prices made higher highs. Oil turned out to be correct about the direction for both commodities in those two cases. And in late 2008, natural gas prices made a brief attempt to move up, making a higher low. But oil prices kept on heading down, eventually proving right that both oil and gas were headed lower." Oil moved up until it didn't. Then it collapsed. Another way of looking at it was that Nat Gas was correct in 2007, and was only dragged up by the same time of frenzied speculation that is driving the market now. Using the logic you quote, you could've justified buying oil at $149/barrel (UNG turning around and going up is a testament that Oil's advance is correct). Instead of looking at relative relationships, I think it's more correct to look at what drives prices. Inflation aside, prices are a function of supply and demand. Are you saying demand is going to outstrip supply? If so, then yes, prices will most definately go higher until an equillibrium betweent the two is reached. @Axclr8
Re-read this:
“Back in 2007, there were a couple of notable divergences when natural gas prices turned down but oil prices made higher highs. Oil turned out to be correct about the direction for both commodities in those two cases. And in late 2008, natural gas prices made a brief attempt to move up, making a higher low. But oil prices kept on heading down, eventually proving right that both oil and gas were headed lower.”

Oil moved up until it didn’t. Then it collapsed. Another way of looking at it was that Nat Gas was correct in 2007, and was only dragged up by the same time of frenzied speculation that is driving the market now. Using the logic you quote, you could’ve justified buying oil at $149/barrel (UNG turning around and going up is a testament that Oil’s advance is correct).

Instead of looking at relative relationships, I think it’s more correct to look at what drives prices. Inflation aside, prices are a function of supply and demand. Are you saying demand is going to outstrip supply? If so, then yes, prices will most definately go higher until an equillibrium betweent the two is reached.

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By: PEJ http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5382 PEJ Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:51:52 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5382 Don't take it personally Mike. I'm on same trades, except the long-vs-short long bond. So it's not me, you, prechter, and most of the "realists". Don’t take it personally Mike. I’m on same trades, except the long-vs-short long bond. So it’s not me, you, prechter, and most of the “realists”.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5379 Mike Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:32:02 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5379 Well, we've got a 5:1 advance:decline ratio on the NYSE intraday. It was a shocker to come back to the screen and see ES printing 1025 on a huge ramp. I thought the shorts were all squeezed already, but as with AIG yesterday, there are a few more drops left in this lemon. But with sentiment stretching the high end of the range, there is only so much upside left. Well, we’ve got a 5:1 advance:decline ratio on the NYSE intraday. It was a shocker to come back to the screen and see ES printing 1025 on a huge ramp. I thought the shorts were all squeezed already, but as with AIG yesterday, there are a few more drops left in this lemon. But with sentiment stretching the high end of the range, there is only so much upside left.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5375 Mike Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:33:54 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5375 Pej, there's no need to taunt. I laid out a short-term case based on what I saw yesterday, and clearly it didn't pan out today. Big deal. Over the last 2 weeks since I turned very bearish, the SPX is up less than 10 pts, bonds are up huge, silver is down a buck, oil is flat, and the dollar has rallied and only retraced part of its move. Choppiness is all part of the topping process -- look closely at winter 2001-2002, July-Dec 2007, May-June and Aug-Sept 08: lots of chop on top of those waves. Pej, there’s no need to taunt. I laid out a short-term case based on what I saw yesterday, and clearly it didn’t pan out today. Big deal. Over the last 2 weeks since I turned very bearish, the SPX is up less than 10 pts, bonds are up huge, silver is down a buck, oil is flat, and the dollar has rallied and only retraced part of its move. Choppiness is all part of the topping process — look closely at winter 2001-2002, July-Dec 2007, May-June and Aug-Sept 08: lots of chop on top of those waves.

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By: Axclr8 http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5374 Axclr8 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:33:27 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5374 @Daedal: Tom McClellan sums it up here: "August 14, 2009 He said, she said. Two people disagree, with no other eyewitnesses, and then how do we tell who is right? There is a normal and understandable relationship between the price movements of natural gas and crude oil. Each commodity is found underground, and thus has similar costs profiles for finding it and extracting it. And each is economically sensitive, with demand rising and falling in sympathy with economic activity. More recently, with the advent of commodity index fund management gaining popularity in hedge funds, the investment properties of each are getting more alike than they were previously and thus the price correlation has increased. Oil prices bottomed in December 2008, and have almost doubled since then as prices have recovered from the crash selloff. But natural gas prices have fallen even further, breaking the correlation in terms of the big picture, but still making minor up and down movements in sympathy with crude oil prices. So if the two are actually related to each other, the question becomes: Who's right, natural gas or oil? Seeing disagreements like this is not new. Back in 2007, there were a couple of notable divergences when natural gas prices turned down but oil prices made higher highs. Oil turned out to be correct about the direction for both commodities in those two cases. And in late 2008, natural gas prices made a brief attempt to move up, making a higher low. But oil prices kept on heading down, eventually proving right that both oil and gas were headed lower. Now we see oil making higher prices as natural gas prices are retesting the lows just above $3. Who's right? If history is our guide, then oil ought to turn out to be the expert about where both are heading." http://www.mcoscillator.com/learning_center/weekly_chart/gas_versus_oil_whos_right/ @Daedal: Tom McClellan sums it up here:

“August 14, 2009

He said, she said. Two people disagree, with no other eyewitnesses, and then how do we tell who is right?

There is a normal and understandable relationship between the price movements of natural gas and crude oil. Each commodity is found underground, and thus has similar costs profiles for finding it and extracting it. And each is economically sensitive, with demand rising and falling in sympathy with economic activity. More recently, with the advent of commodity index fund management gaining popularity in hedge funds, the investment properties of each are getting more alike than they were previously and thus the price correlation has increased.

Oil prices bottomed in December 2008, and have almost doubled since then as prices have recovered from the crash selloff. But natural gas prices have fallen even further, breaking the correlation in terms of the big picture, but still making minor up and down movements in sympathy with crude oil prices. So if the two are actually related to each other, the question becomes: Who’s right, natural gas or oil?

Seeing disagreements like this is not new. Back in 2007, there were a couple of notable divergences when natural gas prices turned down but oil prices made higher highs. Oil turned out to be correct about the direction for both commodities in those two cases. And in late 2008, natural gas prices made a brief attempt to move up, making a higher low. But oil prices kept on heading down, eventually proving right that both oil and gas were headed lower.

Now we see oil making higher prices as natural gas prices are retesting the lows just above $3. Who’s right? If history is our guide, then oil ought to turn out to be the expert about where both are heading.”

http://www.mcoscillator.com/learning_center/weekly_chart/gas_versus_oil_whos_right/

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By: Pej http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5371 Pej Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:52:52 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5371 Also, Bernanke, AKA The South-Compass, is predicting yet again that the economy is improving and that the worst is over and that he saved the planet. With his track record, you can safely consider that it's just the other way around. Also, Bernanke, AKA The South-Compass, is predicting yet again that the economy is improving and that the worst is over and that he saved the planet.
With his track record, you can safely consider that it’s just the other way around.

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By: Pej http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5370 Pej Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:46:49 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5370 USD falling, Long Bond declining, Gold raising, Market flying. So far, market timing has been poor... Sprott just published a report called Gold... The ultimate AAA asset. http://www.sprott.com/Docs/Reports/tripleA_Asset.pdf USD falling, Long Bond declining, Gold raising, Market flying.
So far, market timing has been poor…

Sprott just published a report called Gold… The ultimate AAA asset.

http://www.sprott.com/Docs/Reports/tripleA_Asset.pdf

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2009/08/20/summer-school/#comment-5364 Mike Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:30:31 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=2687#comment-5364 Try $20. Try $20.

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