Comments on: Prechter in the morning (King World News interview) http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/ Thoughts on the markets and the decline of the west Fri, 11 Nov 2011 00:31:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Josh http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8928 Josh Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:23:26 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8928 Jui, in a default the debtor looses the asset and any equity that he had in the asset. The lender looses all cash lent that is not recovered by the sale of the asset. At least this is true for asset backed lending. So both sides loose in the default, unless the debtor had no equity. Jui, in a default the debtor looses the asset and any equity that he had in the asset. The lender looses all cash lent that is not recovered by the sale of the asset. At least this is true for asset backed lending. So both sides loose in the default, unless the debtor had no equity.

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By: golfboy http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8927 golfboy Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:21:50 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8927 Jui, you raise very interesting ideas. In your second thought experiment, the specific mechanism by which "gold becomes worthless" cannot be omitted from the analysis - the destruction would probably be much broader than its effect on the currency. In your first comment, there is no flip side that favors the debtor. The default occurs because the debtor cannot pay *in the first place*; the formal realization is not a net gain to his situation (though it may cut his losses). Jui, you raise very interesting ideas. In your second thought experiment, the specific mechanism by which “gold becomes worthless” cannot be omitted from the analysis - the destruction would probably be much broader than its effect on the currency.

In your first comment, there is no flip side that favors the debtor. The default occurs because the debtor cannot pay *in the first place*; the formal realization is not a net gain to his situation (though it may cut his losses).

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By: Jui http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8919 Jui Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:29:58 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8919 Thanks for your insights. As a result of psychology, I can see that your view could definitely be right, if only temporarily. In the case of Greece, and the euro, though, that psychology might drive the euro lower vs. the usd since usd is the world's safe haven. Thanks for your insights. As a result of psychology, I can see that your view could definitely be right, if only temporarily. In the case of Greece, and the euro, though, that psychology might drive the euro lower vs. the usd since usd is the world’s safe haven.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8913 Mike Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:24:29 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8913 Hmm, well in default a bank can no longer call a loan an asset, unlike in a rollover. If default renders a central bank's assets worthless, its currency should indeed be worth less. However, central bank assets are still small relative to the universe of assets and debt, which more than compensates if for instance mortgage bonds held by the Fed default. And yes, once a default happens, the debtor is freed (at least if he can declare bankruptcy or otherwise truly have the slate wiped clean). This is why after defaults run their course the economy is free to inflate again (people again can start taking on debt -- I consider the expansion of debt to be inflation in today's credit-based system). However, while defaults are happening en mass, money is much in demand and its value goes up. It is the process of mass default and the change in mentality that goes with it, not the final result, that drives the change in value of money. Hmm, well in default a bank can no longer call a loan an asset, unlike in a rollover.

If default renders a central bank’s assets worthless, its currency should indeed be worth less. However, central bank assets are still small relative to the universe of assets and debt, which more than compensates if for instance mortgage bonds held by the Fed default.

And yes, once a default happens, the debtor is freed (at least if he can declare bankruptcy or otherwise truly have the slate wiped clean). This is why after defaults run their course the economy is free to inflate again (people again can start taking on debt — I consider the expansion of debt to be inflation in today’s credit-based system).

However, while defaults are happening en mass, money is much in demand and its value goes up. It is the process of mass default and the change in mentality that goes with it, not the final result, that drives the change in value of money.

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By: Jui http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8912 Jui Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:03:35 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8912 Here's another thought experiment: suppose some central bank out there has all its assets in gold. If gold becomes completely worthless, would we expect that country's currency to appreciate or depreciate relative to a currency that is not backed by gold? I would expect depreciation. To me, it follows that when a central bank asset depreciates, the currency be worth less. If default renders a central bank asset worthless, then its currency should be worth less. Similarly, if default renders a bank's assets worthless, it's banknotes should be worth less. Here’s another thought experiment: suppose some central bank out there has all its assets in gold. If gold becomes completely worthless, would we expect that country’s currency to appreciate or depreciate relative to a currency that is not backed by gold? I would expect depreciation.

To me, it follows that when a central bank asset depreciates, the currency be worth less. If default renders a central bank asset worthless, then its currency should be worth less. Similarly, if default renders a bank’s assets worthless, it’s banknotes should be worth less.

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By: Jui http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8911 Jui Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:55:14 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8911 Interesting points. Here are some counterpoints, though. If default "leaves creditors without money they thought they had", the flip side is that the debtors don't have to raise money they thought they would have to, and this seems to offset that effect. And what is the difference in everyone's balance sheet between a debtor and a creditor agreeing consensually to roll debt over forever (literally), and default, which seems to me the debtor forcing the creditor to roll the debt over forever? In rollover, the creditor is repaid, but he relends the money again immediately, so effectively, he might as well not have been repaid. Otherwise, the two seem equivalent, except for the fact that default is forced upon the creditor while rollover is consensual. The case of the non-FDIC bank going under that you brought up I do agree is deflationary because the checks on that bank are no longer any good, and so money is extinguished. I guess I still see deflation as requiring not just the "wipeout" of the asset side, but also the "wipeout" of its corresponding liability. Interesting points. Here are some counterpoints, though. If default “leaves creditors without money they thought they had”, the flip side is that the debtors don’t have to raise money they thought they would have to, and this seems to offset that effect. And what is the difference in everyone’s balance sheet between a debtor and a creditor agreeing consensually to roll debt over forever (literally), and default, which seems to me the debtor forcing the creditor to roll the debt over forever? In rollover, the creditor is repaid, but he relends the money again immediately, so effectively, he might as well not have been repaid. Otherwise, the two seem equivalent, except for the fact that default is forced upon the creditor while rollover is consensual.

The case of the non-FDIC bank going under that you brought up I do agree is deflationary because the checks on that bank are no longer any good, and so money is extinguished.

I guess I still see deflation as requiring not just the “wipeout” of the asset side, but also the “wipeout” of its corresponding liability.

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8909 Mike Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:12:26 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8909 Kondratieff chart: http://www.oextradingresources.com/kondratieff.gif Kondratieff chart: http://www.oextradingresources.com/kondratieff.gif

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By: Mike http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8908 Mike Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:04:57 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8908 Good question. Default is deflationary because it leaves creditors without money they thought they had. When the creditor is a bank, if defaults are large enough their "asset" base (comprised of IOUs) shrinks and they become insolvent, wiping out their own creditors (depositors, to the point that they are uninsured). While this proceeds, cash is very much in demand. The debt is not rolled over -- it is wiped out. Rollovers aren't defaults, and are not deflationary, but defaults aren't rollovers. In a rollover, creditors get paid because borrowers get new loans. In this environment people are unable to get new loans. In the end, debt balances are much lower. This finally sets the stage for the cycle to start again with the accumulation of new debt (which is inflationary), but deflation takes years to play out. Just look at the length of a typical Kondratieff winter: perhaps 8-15 years. Good question. Default is deflationary because it leaves creditors without money they thought they had. When the creditor is a bank, if defaults are large enough their “asset” base (comprised of IOUs) shrinks and they become insolvent, wiping out their own creditors (depositors, to the point that they are uninsured).

While this proceeds, cash is very much in demand. The debt is not rolled over — it is wiped out. Rollovers aren’t defaults, and are not deflationary, but defaults aren’t rollovers. In a rollover, creditors get paid because borrowers get new loans. In this environment people are unable to get new loans.

In the end, debt balances are much lower. This finally sets the stage for the cycle to start again with the accumulation of new debt (which is inflationary), but deflation takes years to play out. Just look at the length of a typical Kondratieff winter: perhaps 8-15 years.

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By: Jui http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8907 Jui Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:53:28 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8907 Mike, I have a question about why debt default is deflationary. Repayment of dollar debt creates demand for dollars. I agree that is clearly deflationary as both outstanding debt balances and outstanding dollars decrease. Default on debt, however, strikes me as equivalent to a perpetual rollover of the debt, which should tend to reduce the value of the dollar, because the future dollar demand that would have arisen to pay off the debt is no longer there. Thoughts? Mike, I have a question about why debt default is deflationary. Repayment of dollar debt creates demand for dollars. I agree that is clearly deflationary as both outstanding debt balances and outstanding dollars decrease. Default on debt, however, strikes me as equivalent to a perpetual rollover of the debt, which should tend to reduce the value of the dollar, because the future dollar demand that would have arisen to pay off the debt is no longer there. Thoughts?

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By: LEONARD http://sovereignspeculator.com/2010/03/24/prechter-in-the-morning-king-world-news-interview/#comment-8904 LEONARD Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:51:50 +0000 http://sovereignspeculator.com/?p=4385#comment-8904 Mike, agree with all your analysis, but what is the time line? For the near future, until a US credit downgrade, fiscal policy of borrowing could keep the market afloat. Longer term, default through inflation seems to be the only option. On a separate note, isn't there counterparty risk to holding funds in any brokerage account or even Vanguard. Certainly there is counterparty risk in owning gold ETF's. Physical gold is not much better, for you could be risking more than money when you try to exchange it. With treasuries at risk for default, where does one hide? Mike, agree with all your analysis, but what is the time line? For the near future, until a US credit downgrade, fiscal policy of borrowing could keep the market afloat. Longer term, default through inflation seems to be the only option.

On a separate note, isn’t there counterparty risk to holding funds in any brokerage account or even Vanguard. Certainly there is counterparty risk in owning gold ETF’s. Physical gold is not much better, for you could be risking more than money when you try to exchange it. With treasuries at risk for default, where does one hide?

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